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Sean 
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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 Posted - 12/03/2006 : 22:37:28
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quote:
Originally posted by bife
Linda and Alice turned the tables on me when we moved to Holland. Within three months she was 100% fluent, such that other locals couldn't tell she wasn't Dutch...
I think that's 'cos kids are sponges. They just soak it up and can learn new languages in no time. When I was about 30 I had to learn French when I was living in Guinea (West Africa), I started a course two weeks before arriving there, and had previously learned nothing, not even basic French at school. For six months there I spoke virtually no English (nobody there speaks English) so had no choice but to speak French. After six months I had basic survival French, i.e., could communicate with the locals and get the job done etc. But there's no way in hell would I call it 'fluent'. I'd learn a new word and have forgotten it 5 minutes later. Try again with the same word next day and forget it again. I suspect this was due to age, if I'd been 10 years old I would have soaked it up and become fluent in a few months, like Miss Alice.
My memory is definitely declining, and I'm not even 40 yet.  So there's no chance of ever becoming fluent in another language, irrespective of necessity.  |
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ChocolateLady 
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 12/04/2006 : 06:15:16
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We've come to the conclusion that the age of 10 is the cut-off age. If you were younger then 10 when you moved from one country to another, then the language of your new country will become your more dominant language. If you're older than 10, while you can become fluent, your original language will still be the one you are most comfortable with. If you're exactly 10, you'll be equally strong in both languages.
Of course, it also depends on the personality of the kid. The more they want to integrate into the country, the faster and more fluent they'll become. But some things just can't be helped, no matter how you try. That's why kids who come over the age of ten are given extra time and some help with their matriculation tests.
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Salopian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 12/06/2006 : 12:30:20
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quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
Its been such a long time since I saw Cabaret that I just don't recall. I do think the Germans spoke German in that movie, and other than that, there is the multi-language themesong.
As for Avanti Popolo - come to think of it, there is a long scene where the two Egyptian soldiers meet with Israeli soldiers and the conversation between them is in English (and I'm almost certain that the Israelis speak Hebrew to one another as well, despite IMDb not mentioning Hebrew in the languages). So this whole scene is Arabic among the Egyptians, Hebrew among the Israelis and English between the Israelis and Egyptians. And of course the title of the film is Italian - and the soldiers sing this same titled Italian Revolution song in the film (even though none of them understand it). Does that count?
I'll leave Cabaret for now then. Since I'll probably see it at some point, I'll decide then. It doesn't sound as though Avanti Popolo is quite right. It needs to be properly bilingual individuals, who change language with the same other individuals. |
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Salopian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 12/06/2006 : 12:40:17
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The language learning thing is called the critical period hypothesis and the age is often thought to be about puberty (younger for phonology). The idea is that we are evolved to have learnt language by then and so the specialisation shuts down to a high degree, so that the brain can concentrate on other things. This is not so strongly held as it was in the late 1960s/1970s, but I still think it is pretty valid. It doesn't just apply to second languages, but to first languages too - as was tragically shown by the case of Genie (and others).
It's amazing how easily children learn language. Young children need to master several new words a day in order to achieve a typical vocabulary. Children can also usually become bilingual with relatively little input - for example hearing children growing up in deaf environments only need a few hours' exposure to spoken language a week. |
Edited by - Salopian on 12/06/2006 12:41:23 |
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Shiv 
"What a Wonderful World"
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Posted - 03/02/2007 : 11:16:21
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Suggestion for film Water (2005 Deepa Mehta) - they fluctuate between Hindi and English in the way you describe.
As for children learning language, there's been a lot of research done on this, and the 'critical period' for language acquisition is 0 to 7 years (obviously this varies in each child, but that's the mean). The difficulties Sean describes learning language at the age of 30 are also reflected in the research. If you are not innately a good language learner (and there are such people - some of amazing abilities) then you really struggle, because your language has 'fossilised' and you find the acquisition of new language structures and new phonology really hard.
Did you know that Joseph Conrad (Heart of Darkness etc) was never able to learn to speak English fluently, and that up until his death his Polish accent was indecipherable. However, he wrote beautifully in English. If you didn't know he was Polish you would not know it from his writing. |
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Beanmimo 
"August review site"
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Posted - 03/02/2007 : 16:21:47
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Just to confuse you more sal, how about "A Clockwork Orange" where Anthony Burgess' created language of the future which was a mix of Russian and english is used. |
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Salopian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 03/03/2007 : 23:38:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Shiv
Suggestion for film Water (2005 Deepa Mehta) - they fluctuate between Hindi and English in the way you describe.
Most Bollywood films do this, at least ones planned to have international release. I have therefore decided to only add the ones that I have seen. Thanks anyway, though. |
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Salopian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 03/03/2007 : 23:40:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Beanmimo
Just to confuse you more sal, how about "A Clockwork Orange" where Anthony Burgess' created language of the future which was a mix of Russian and english is used.
Nah, that wouldn't count. It has to be back and forth between languages, not just a creole - invented or otherwise. Thanks too, though. |
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Shiv
"What a Wonderful World"
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Posted - 03/04/2007 : 00:24:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
quote:
Originally posted by Shiv
Suggestion for film Water (2005 Deepa Mehta) - they fluctuate between Hindi and English in the way you describe.
Most Bollywood films do this, at least ones planned to have international release. I have therefore decided to only add the ones that I have seen. Thanks anyway, though.
This isn't a Bollywood film - have you seen it? I'd say not. It's a Canadian/English collaboration, and there is not a single song in it! In fact, I think it perfectly matches what you are looking for with code-switching. So - maybe watch it then decide?? (By the way, it was nominated for the Foreign Film oscar...) |
Edited by - Shiv on 03/04/2007 00:24:59 |
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Salopian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 03/04/2007 : 17:06:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Shiv
This isn't a Bollywood film... It's a Canadian/English collaboration, and there is not a single song in it!
Not all Bollywood films have singing, you know! I'm sure you're right about where the funding came from, but Mehta made the film because of her Indian-ness, not her Canadian-ness. So Bollywood may not be correct if one takes that to strictly mean films made in Bombay, but I was only talking casually and the film is still definitely in the category that I meant. If I ever see it then I have no doubt that I will add it. |
Edited by - Salopian on 03/04/2007 17:09:22 |
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Shiv
"What a Wonderful World"
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Posted - 03/06/2007 : 13:02:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
quote:
Originally posted by Shiv
This isn't a Bollywood film... It's a Canadian/English collaboration, and there is not a single song in it!
Not all Bollywood films have singing, you know! I'm sure you're right about where the funding came from, but Mehta made the film because of her Indian-ness, not her Canadian-ness. So Bollywood may not be correct if one takes that to strictly mean films made in Bombay, but I was only talking casually and the film is still definitely in the category that I meant. If I ever see it then I have no doubt that I will add it.
Yes, she raises the issue of widows in Hindu culture. Although the film is set in the time of Ghandi, it is still a pertinent issue. I have seen two documentaries on the topic now. It is a beautifully made and moving film, and I was really hoping it would win the Foreign Film Academy Award, but I think it was a rank outsider. I didn't know anything about it when I rented it, and was surprised to see it nominated. |
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Bilingualism
