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randall 
"I like to watch."
NYC, USA
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 Posted - 04/12/2009 : 02:19:00
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Ms. Randall liked Clint Eastwood's new one okay, but I was a bit let down. It's 1994 and Nelson Mandela is the newly installed president of South Africa, to the shock and dismay of most whites. SA will be hosting the rugby World Cup in about a year. Wouldn't it be great for national pride and unity if it could win the blamed thing? To anybody for whom I might possibly be spoiling the final New Zealand/South Africa match, all I can suggest is, get your thumb out of your mouth.
Rugby seems to be a simple game, but that's because it's never explained to us. All the rugby sequences look the same, and there are tons of them. On top of that, everybody is doing a wonderful regional accent, including stars Morgan Freeman and Matt Damon [Freeman's r-rolling pronunciation of "rugby" is a repeated pleasure], so it's frequently difficult to understand them. The team supposedly sucked before Mandela had his great idea, but we have no clue what brought them back into contention; they're only in the Cup at all because that's a perk for hosting.
The only poignancy is probably inadvertent. I was struck early on with how similar Mandela's uphill battle is to President Obama's: he's been handed a country in its very worst recent shape, and he's being tripped and held back by a yahoo class which doesn't like the color of his skin. But this current-events echo has to be serendipity, because INVICTUS must have been deep into production well before Election Day.
A rental, if that. |
Edited by - randall on 04/12/2009 02:26:54 |
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Sean 
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
New Zealand
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Posted - 04/12/2009 : 07:43:09
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Did they deal with the food poisoning of the NZ team?  |
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randall
"I like to watch."
NYC, USA
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Posted - 04/12/2009 : 11:59:35
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AC
"Returning FWFR Old-Timer"
Canada
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Posted - 05/12/2009 : 03:33:53
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That's because it's BLOODY FICTION, Sean!! (the poisoning story, that is)
You mob were outplayed in the final fair and square - I'm not sure I buy the 'SA were hopeless' thread since there's absolutely no way they would have missed qualifying for RWC 95 regardless of where they played. They'd only been back in world rugby for 4 years and hadn't won anything yet, but they had (and have) a powerhouse provincial competition which guaranteed they'd compete when the Apartheid ban was lifted. That, and the qualificaion process for RWC guarantees spots to all major rugby nations (SA, NZ, Aus, Eng, Ire, Fra, Scot, Italy, Argentina, Wales, even Canada and the US!) and the little guys fight it out for the final few spots. They were alway bound to win a World Cup quickly - doing it in SA was quicker than expected but fair enough if you consider the home ground advantage. As an Australia fan I'm not sure I want to watch Invictus, but I am glad it's exposing more North Americans to the game they play in heaven.
1987, Sean. 1987.
Go you Wallabies! |
Edited by - AC on 05/12/2009 03:36:43 |
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BiggerBoat 
"Pass me the harpoon"
London, UK
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Posted - 05/12/2009 : 13:19:16
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quote:
Originally posted by randall
Rugby seems to be a simple game, but that's because it's never explained to us. All the rugby sequences look the same, and there are tons of them.
No, it's not a particularly simple game to understand but I don't think that should particularly matter when watching sport films. I've grown up watching American sports films about baseball, basketball, ice hockey and american football - none of which I had any real clue about - but appreciating that team has to win after facing adversity. Just think how lucky you are that you understand all those movies! My favourite sports are football, rugby and cricket. I can count on one hand the number of decent films that have been made about those sports.
This is the Times' top 50 films about sport. A British newspaper and yet in that 50 there are 6 films about baseball, 2 about basketball and 4 about American football. Compare that to the 6 films about football (all pretty awful films), 1 on cricket and 1 on rugby. There are a total of 37 US produced films in that list.
The greatest shame of it is that football, the greatest sport on earth (1.3 billion people watched the last word cup final) has had, in my opinion, no decent films made about it. Maybe one day.
quote:
Originally posted by randall
On top of that, everybody is doing a wonderful regional accent, including stars Morgan Freeman and Matt Damon [Freeman's r-rolling pronunciation of "rugby" is a repeated pleasure], so it's frequently difficult to understand them.
Yeah, we get that with American films.
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
New Zealand
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Posted - 05/12/2009 : 23:14:44
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quote:
Originally posted by AC
That's because it's BLOODY FICTION, Sean!! (the poisoning story, that is)
I'm not sure what you mean. It's an established historical fact that half the NZ squad suffered from food poisoning two days before the game. I'm not suggesting it was the 'wrong' result (everyone who knows anything about rugby now knows that the ABs crumble under WC pressure) as it's hardly the SA teams fault, but a fact is a fact: the ABs were sick. |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
New Zealand
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Posted - 05/12/2009 : 23:50:01
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quote:
Originally posted by BiggerBoat
This is the Times' top 50 films about sport. A British newspaper and yet in that 50 there are 6 films about baseball, 2 about basketball and 4 about American football. Compare that to the 6 films about football (all pretty awful films), 1 on cricket and 1 on rugby.
Damn, you got my hopes up there. The cricket one is Lagaan: Once Upon a Time in India (2001),a four-hour Bollywood musical.  |
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aahaa, muahaha 
"Optimistic altruist, incurable romantic"
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Posted - 06/12/2009 : 03:13:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by BiggerBoat
This is the Times' top 50 films about sport. A British newspaper and yet in that 50 there are 6 films about baseball, 2 about basketball and 4 about American football. Compare that to the 6 films about football (all pretty awful films), 1 on cricket and 1 on rugby.
Damn, you got my hopes up there. The cricket one is Lagaan: Once Upon a Time in India (2001),a four-hour Bollywood musical.
FWIW, I feel that Lagaan is a very nice movie - I guess it narrowly lost the OScar for Best Foreign Film; the other contenders were Amelie and No Man's Land (the winner). I like the way in which several later day cricket occurrences such as mankading and sledging are woven into the story and how the game of cricket becomes a metaphor for a non-violent freedom struggle. |
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AC
"Returning FWFR Old-Timer"
Canada
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Posted - 06/12/2009 : 14:41:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by AC
That's because it's BLOODY FICTION, Sean!! (the poisoning story, that is)
I'm not sure what you mean. It's an established historical fact that half the NZ squad suffered from food poisoning two days before the game. I'm not suggesting it was the 'wrong' result (everyone who knows anything about rugby now knows that the ABs crumble under WC pressure) as it's hardly the SA teams fault, but a fact is a fact: the ABs were sick.
Well, you know what I meant - the fiction was 'Susie' the poisoner. They were crook, but many Kiwis maintain that it was an inside job designed to cripple the ABs. It's like you say, the All Blacks need no help choking their way out of World Cups!  |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
New Zealand
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Posted - 06/12/2009 : 20:42:39
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quote:
Originally posted by AC
quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by AC
That's because it's BLOODY FICTION, Sean!! (the poisoning story, that is)
I'm not sure what you mean. It's an established historical fact that half the NZ squad suffered from food poisoning two days before the game. I'm not suggesting it was the 'wrong' result (everyone who knows anything about rugby now knows that the ABs crumble under WC pressure) as it's hardly the SA teams fault, but a fact is a fact: the ABs were sick.
Well, you know what I meant - the fiction was 'Susie' the poisoner. They were crook, but many Kiwis maintain that it was an inside job designed to cripple the ABs. It's like you say, the All Blacks need no help choking their way out of World Cups!
I didn't know what you meant. I was talking about the fact of their food poisoning, not the "they were poisoned" conspiracy theory (which stands alongside the bullets from the grassy knoll, Neil Armstrong's first step on the moon being filmed in Nevada, the CIA's implosion of the WTC etc etc as failing to stand up to more than 5 minutes scrutiny).
But I'm not surprised the food poisoning wasn't mentioned in the movie, it's an inconvenient fact that doesn't fit into a tale of sporting heroism. E.g., nobody's going to make a boxing movie where the hero defeats a mighty opponent who happens to have a dicky knee.
BTW, I'll remind you that the mighty Wallabies choked their way out of the last world cup before the mighty AB's did!  |
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randall
"I like to watch."
NYC, USA
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Posted - 06/12/2009 : 21:12:40
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quote:
Originally posted by BiggerBoat
quote:
Originally posted by randall
Rugby seems to be a simple game, but that's because it's never explained to us. All the rugby sequences look the same, and there are tons of them.
No, it's not a particularly simple game to understand but I don't think that should particularly matter when watching sport films.
Here we disagree. As I said, the rugby sequences are almost indistinguishable from one another by anybody unfamiliar with the game. Couldn't they have given us a little help?
quote:
Originally posted by randall
On top of that, everybody is doing a wonderful regional accent, including stars Morgan Freeman and Matt Damon [Freeman's r-rolling pronunciation of "rugby" is a repeated pleasure], so it's frequently difficult to understand them.
Yeah, we get that with American films.
Um, this is an American film. |
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BiggerBoat
"Pass me the harpoon"
London, UK
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Posted - 06/12/2009 : 23:58:20
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quote:
Originally posted by randall
Here we disagree. As I said, the rugby sequences are almost indistinguishable from one another by anybody unfamiliar with the game. Couldn't they have given us a little help?
I dunno, I'm going to have to see it to check if the rugby sequences hold up. I'll get back to you. I agree that there should be at least a notion of what is trying to be achieved, but to dwell on the rules too much would surely be destructive to a flowing narrative?
I found this interview of Clint talking about the film and it seems like he was trying to make it realistic, even if he didn't know what that meant himself.
This by Tom McCarthy in Variety
"Just as it's disinclined to offer a primer on South African politics, the film refrains from outlining the rules of rugby; the viewer just has to jump in and surmise that it's something like a cross between soccer and American football. What the film conveys with tart economy is that rugby was a white game, scorned by blacks; as one man puts it, "Soccer is a gentleman's game played by hooligans, rugby is a hooligan's game played by gentlemen.""
quote:
Originally posted by randall
Um, this is an American film.
All I'm saying is that I'd rather it was accurate than toned down. I've got a lot of South African friends so I'll probably pick it up easier.
Incidentally I happened to have an England rugby player come to my house, randomly, after a gig a couple of weeks ago. My flatmate dragged him back not really knowing who he was. Matt Stevens, a prop, huge. He played in the last world cup final against the South Africans so I was asking him a bit about it. Lovely guy. Lifted me off the ground like I was a puppy when he said goodbye.
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AC
"Returning FWFR Old-Timer"
Canada
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Posted - 07/12/2009 : 00:44:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
BTW, I'll remind you that the mighty Wallabies choked their way out of the last world cup before the mighty AB's did!
An HOUR before - nothing but a matter of scheduling...
At least the team that beat us made the RWC final...! |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
New Zealand
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Posted - 07/12/2009 : 03:17:53
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Picky picky!
Confession time: I haven't watched a game of rugby for 2-3 years, not even a tiny part of a match. I've lost interest in all sport unless it's cricket. I blame the 10-month rugby season, it's total overkill and caused me to lose interest in all of it. |
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randall
"I like to watch."
NYC, USA
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Posted - 07/12/2009 : 13:26:37
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| I'll be interested to read your views on the rugby issue, BB. Don't forget to report back when you finally see INVICTUS. You're so right that sporting rules should not intrude upon the flowing narrative, but let's concede that the flowing narrative of this particular film is all about rugby. All we're explicitly told is that a forward pass is not allowed, and that's in a children's clinic held by Matt Damon. How about just two or three more minutes at that same clinic? Rugby is to American football as cricket is to American baseball, but the rules aren't backward/forward compatible, as any fan of any of those four sports knows. The rest of INVICTUS's tech details are so tight that this one jumps out at us Americans. At least this American. |
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rugbyrhino 
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Posted - 08/12/2009 : 02:56:18
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quote:
Originally posted by AC
That's because it's BLOODY FICTION, Sean!! (the poisoning story, that is)
You mob were outplayed in the final fair and square - I'm not sure I buy the 'SA were hopeless' thread since there's absolutely no way they would have missed qualifying for RWC 95 regardless of where they played. They'd only been back in world rugby for 4 years and hadn't won anything yet, but they had (and have) a powerhouse provincial competition which guaranteed they'd compete when the Apartheid ban was lifted. That, and the qualificaion process for RWC guarantees spots to all major rugby nations (SA, NZ, Aus, Eng, Ire, Fra, Scot, Italy, Argentina, Wales, even Canada and the US!) and the little guys fight it out for the final few spots. They were alway bound to win a World Cup quickly - doing it in SA was quicker than expected but fair enough if you consider the home ground advantage. As an Australia fan I'm not sure I want to watch Invictus, but I am glad it's exposing more North Americans to the game they play in heaven.
1987, Sean. 1987.
Go you Wallabies!
A reality check on non-fiction for my Australian mate:
There is a book written by Mandela's chief bodyguard who also went on to guard the All Blacks during the 1995 World Cup. Rory Steyn - One Step Behind Mandela. He has a whole chapter titled "The All Blacks and Food Poisoning." That final was epic, but a film should have been made about the epic effort put in by a POISONED All Black side playing at HIGH ALTITUDE and almost winning. Indeed this same All Black side went on to beat this same so-called Invictus Sprinkbok side 6 times out of the next 7 meetings. Please bear in mind, the All Blacks weren't food poisoned in those games, so it was hardly fair on the Springboks.
Rory Steyn writes: the "illness" which had swept through the team had a major impact on the All Blacks' preparation for the final. "I had to endure accusations of complicity in this, from New Zealand officials, and I was very angry that this was allowed to happen in my country - to people in my care," Steyn said. Rory Steyn says the All Blacks were the best team in the competition - "against the Ellis' Park altitude and against food poisoning they ran South Africa close into extra time, so close.
"Laurie Mains(NZ coach), now the highly popular coach of the Cats(in 2000), says that he'll go to his grave wondering what would have happened if the All Blacks had not been sick," Steyn said in the book. Mains employed a private investigator in an attempt to get to the bottom of the mystery. Steyn said the investigator reported back that a Far Eastern betting syndicate had paid a waitress called Suzie at the All Blacks' hotel to put something in their water. "South African rugby fans remained sceptical of this theory and preferred to put it down to sour Kiwi grapes," Steyn said. "To my fellow South Africans I want to say this: Stop all those cheap jokes about Suzie, the food poisoning and whingeing Kiwis. It happened. There is no doubt that the All Blacks were poisoned two days before the final. "The All Black team never whinged about it. If anybody whinged it was their media and boy can they whinge. "In fact the New Zealand team management took a decision not to use the poisoning as an excuse, not to even mention it."
This is an eye witness account from a credible South African. Care to rebut?
Personally I think the Suzie was concocted to throw off the Main's investigation. It is a fact, that for that fateful meal only, the All Blacks were separated from the public. This suggests a more orchestrated operation than some lone waitress. Afterall we are talking about the South African government. Fair play has never been their strong suit.
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Invictus
