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MguyX 
"X marks the spot"
United States
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 Posted - 07/03/2010 : 19:32:32
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Alice Spoilers? Isn't that like giving away the ending of "The Ten Commandments"? Well, for me, it wasn't the issue of plot spoilers that interrupted my approach to Tim Burton's installment: it was that thing that critics do that proved a little overshadowing -- performance evaluation. I saw this internet article emblazoned with the titluar opinion "Depp upstaged in 'Alice'" or some such thing, and I thought "Johnny doesn't seem like the type who's trying to upstage or worry about being upstaged," and I wondered, briefly, to whom this article would refer. Helena Bonham Carter. Oops.
My daughter told me (age 12), as we waited to see the film, that she hates it when movies change the storyline of a book. So I told her that I used to dislike live versions of many songs when they changed key notes or musical phrasing. Then I heard a Mick Jagger interview (circa 1983) wherein he briefly explained why performing a song the same as in-studio was stagnant, which then changed my perspective. I explained to my daughter that the movie was going to be highly derivative work rather than a literal retelling, as I had heard that one of the foundational elements -- Alice's age -- had been changed. She looked at me.
"I hope this doesn't prove droll or jejune, Daddy. At times, Burton can drown in his own distraction."
"What?"
"I said, 'There's a lot of people here, so I hope we get good seats!'"
"Oh."
There's this messy prologue-y stuff, and a couple of in-story voiceovers that gave me the impression of trying to get an old gas-powered lawnmower started, with several seemingly futile pulls at the crank cord. Then finally the blades start whirring and that jungle of bush out there starts to look like an adventure. But mowing a lawn is not really much of an adventure when you get to it. After all, it's only grass.
And it's grass that was missing from 'Alice'. Not the lawn type: I mean the kind you smoked in college; the kind that makes you silly and profound all at once. (The kind that I can't smoke anymore, because now it just makes me sleepy.) This 'Alice' needed the munchies, because "she" was a little thin. There's not much of a story, but that's oftentimes not an impediment to powerful actors. Witness Helena. By yielding to the expected spectacle of Depp's Mad Hatter, Helena Bonham Carter plucked the hell out of this three-stringed guitar of a script (reminding me of an abstract version of Miranda Richardson's Queenie from the old Black Adder II series). Her less is much much more. On the flip-side, however, a potentially creepy Crispin Glover merely toes the line, which might have been just fine were it not for the fact that he could have been given and could have been allowed to do much more ... more or less.
But Burton tries to fill the remainder by giving Johnny too much room within which to make something happen. There was so much he (Burton? Johnny?) could have done with this role. A subtle, romantic subtext that creeps below his caracature could have been ample fuel if allowed to ignite. Less of a clear distinction between good and evil might have served his madness better. The story concepts got dark (good! good!), but the one character who needed it stayed a bit too fluffy. When I looked beneath that spectacular make-up, sometimes I saw ... Willy Wonka. Again? (because it worked so well the first time?!?) ... and I came to the conclusion that Johnny's only fault in this film is a lack of clear direction from Burton.
Tim Burton does not know how to direct Johnny Depp any further than Edward Scissorhands. Period.
"So Burton did get distracted, Daddy, if not entirely drowned. He flitters between animation and abstracted fantasy in the set work white setting an acid-inspired Jack Sparrow adrift in Wonka-like fantasy without giving him at least the mission, if not the potential menace, of a Donnie Brasco."
"What?"
"I said, 'Let's go to the bookstore so I can get the book of the movie!'"
Children: there's no accounting for taste. |
Edited by - MguyX on 07/03/2010 19:47:00 |
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w22dheartlivie
"Kitty Lover"
United States
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Posted - 07/03/2010 : 20:41:39
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| But did you like it? Was it good? 'Cuz I mostly think about that Tom Petty song with the cake made like Alice when I think of this title. Don't Come Around Here No More, I think? |
Edited by - w22dheartlivie on 07/03/2010 20:45:52 |
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MguyX
"X marks the spot"
United States
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Posted - 07/03/2010 : 20:52:26
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quote:
Originally posted by wildheartlivie
But did you like it? Was it good?
My dear, but if you count the number of "g"s the answer is quite apparent. 
(I remember that the music video of that Tom Petty song was ALL about Alice.  ) |
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BaftaBaby 
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 07/03/2010 : 23:31:14
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Loverly summary and account, MguyX!
The film -- and I speak as an inveterate Tim Burton fan -- looks magnificent. But. Yes, this is Alice, not Avatar. But.
Considering the explosive humor in Carroll's book/s - especially the scene in the kitchen with the Duchess and the pepper and the baby/pig -- which is not in this film -- considering all that weird and wonderful laugh out loud stuff, the film is po-faced. To its detriment.
I wanted the shocking power and insane humor of Mars Attacks! I wanted an Alice by Guillermo del Toro.
But I got Avatar in Underland. Which is to say there are chunky-chunks of the film that are visually stunning. e.g. The scene wherein Alice in armor champions the White Queen against the fire-breathing foe is visually lifted from evoking a similar battle from Fritz Lang's Die Nibelungen: Siegfried. And a couple of shots of the battlefield, momentary though they were, brought to mind the majesty of Kurasawa's Ran. For a moment.
The script is as thin as Parma ham but never so tasty. The actors have no room to become characters, though some try and try, like Jimmy Cliff says. But they don't succeed at last and they don't get it if they really want.
There are intriguing hints of philosophy, such as when Alice being interviewed by her stern potential mom-in-law replies to the question: Do you know what I despair of? with the witty: The decline of the aristocracy? Sadly it's one of the only wit-bits in the film and it comes quite near the start.
There's a political consciousness with royal slaves rebelling, but it comes in bursts like the occasional tree snapping in a quiet forest. Mildly arresting. But what you crave is a dramatic through-line.
And why, pray tell, has Alice had to age out of pre-pubescence? Surely that was one of the main points of the story. Given Carroll's or should I say Dodgeson's paedophilic obsession with young girls on the threshold of womanhood, bumping Alice up to a marriageable age and sending her down the rabbit hole confuses the psycho-sexual undertones. And her lack of emotional reaction to any hints at a darker side, makes her seem retarded.
Which brings me to what is probably the biggest flaw of the film: Mia Wasikowska. I know people are raving about her, and I certainly haven't seen all her films. But as Alice, she's just terrible. She drifts through as though she's in a zom-com. She's got all the charisma of colostomy bag. And I don't think she's even got much screen presence.
Anne Hathaway, on the other hand, invests every moment with a quasi-regal gothic feyness that perfectly encapsulates the White Queen.
You expect something astounding from Depp - and I, for one, was convinced. I know what you mean about Wonka - but I think that's just a make-up thing. His Hatter has much denser layers - all his own 'cause godnose they ain't in the script. His schizoid uncontrollable ravings are actually based on the mercury poisoning that Victorian hatmakers suffered from prolonged intimate contact with the treatment of felt. And there's a touching vulnerability which Wonka lacks.
Helena B-C has certainly developed a fine line in the outrageous imperious. I only wish she'd have been given more than a series of barely connected moments. Blackadder's Queenie, not only had the sublime Miranda Richardson, it had laugh-so-hard-I-spilled-my-tea-all-down-my-lap dialogue. H B-C had the pig moment.
Of the minor characters and visuals aside, what a waste of Michael Sheen, Stephen Fry, Matt Lucas, et al. Only Alan Rickman as the caterpillar and Barbara Windsor as the dormouse, each in very different but appropriate ways, bring some style. But none of it's enough to stop the whole thing from sinking sinking sinking, and drowning in turgid mud, I fear, not in Underland or Wonderland or anything attractive.
It all lacks elan, soul, call it what you will.
Sadly, when Burton met Disney, the mouse won. 
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MisterBadIdea 
"PLZ GET MILK, KTHXBYE"
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Posted - 08/03/2010 : 00:44:37
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This isn't Alice in Wonderland, it's a Narnia movie that happens to quote "Alice in Wonderland" a lot. And it's not a very good Narnia movie either.
Half-assed on every level. The character design is stock (except for The Mad Hatter, which is just a mess), the feminist themes are tacked on badly, the ending is terrible, the pacing is off, the character arc is bungled, Wonderland is notably unwondrous, and the Red Queen, while the most interesting character, carries no real threat to the character. |
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MguyX
"X marks the spot"
United States
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Posted - 08/03/2010 : 01:11:45
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quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
.... And her lack of emotional reaction to any hints at a darker side, makes her seem retarded. ...
 Too true.
quote:
Originally posted by MisterBadIdea
.... it's a Narnia movie that happens to quote "Alice in Wonderland" a lot. And it's not a very good Narnia movie either. ...
 Too true. |
Edited by - MguyX on 08/03/2010 01:15:46 |
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w22dheartlivie
"Kitty Lover"
United States
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Posted - 08/03/2010 : 05:40:57
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| Well, it still sounds better than Where the Wild Things Are. My 11 year old great-godson said "What I hate about that movie is that I can never get the two hours back and I can't get the visuals out of my head without therapy." And he's only 11. |
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MguyX
"X marks the spot"
United States
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Posted - 08/03/2010 : 06:00:00
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quote:
Originally posted by wildheartlivie
Well, it still sounds better than Where the Wild Things Are. My 11 year old great-godson said "What I hate about that movie is that I can never get the two hours back and I can't get the visuals out of my head without therapy." And he's only 11.
Yet another reason people needs ta bring they cellphones, laptops, and Spanish-speaking aunts and uncles to the movies with them -- the preciousness of time.
Waste not, want not. |
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ChocolateLady
"500 Chocolate Delights"
Israel
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Posted - 08/03/2010 : 12:06:13
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quote:
Originally posted by MguyX
quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
.... And her lack of emotional reaction to any hints at a darker side, makes her seem retarded. ...
Too true.
quote:
Originally posted by MisterBadIdea
.... it's a Narnia movie that happens to quote "Alice in Wonderland" a lot. And it's not a very good Narnia movie either. ...
Too true.
Oy vey! What a shame.
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demonic
"Cinemaniac"
United Kingdom
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Posted - 09/03/2010 : 02:35:46
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Yup, agreeing with the good and clever people above. A barely entertaining retread, of an increasingly tired director with very few new ideas. Pale-faced, quirky and half-assed Johnny Depp performance -tick. A few gnarled trees with pointing fingers - it's oh so gothic (lite) - check. Tired looking women frowning a lot - uh huh. Strained script papered over with some distracting visuals - ooooh yeah.
I'm not sure what I really liked in it other than a fairly exciting Jabberwock battle (shame it had to talk, like every damn animal in the film... but not a hedgehog for some reason.) Oh, and the bloodhound. I really liked dogs, and he was quite sweet. That's it. I blame the script first, Burton second, the casting director third. In Salopian parlance a high 2/5 or low 3/5. |
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Sean 
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
New Zealand
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Posted - 09/03/2010 : 03:43:18
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quote:
Originally posted by demonic
...a high 2/5 or low 3/5.
As in, 2.5? Or 5/10?  |
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Mr Savoir Faire 
"^ Click my name. "
ATL, Georgia (USA)
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Posted - 16/03/2010 : 19:22:32
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I thought the film was okay, but nothing special.
I like the style of the dialogue in the film. The visuals look pretty good as well.
There isn't enough emphasis on riddles though. All they do is use that "Why is a raven like a writing desk?" 5 times. There are no poems or songs, and as far as I can tell, no hidden anagrams that Carrol put in his books.
The action scene with the jabberwocky was unbelievably corny and long. Alice was thrown 50 feet in the air and manages to land safely on some rocks whilst cutting off the head of the jabberwocky.
The 1800's drama, like everyone else has said, was terrible. Also, given the ending of the story, Alice is directly responsible for causing the Second Opium War.
I base this on the fact that she convinces a company to start trading with China, and there's already the 'foothold' of Hong Kong. This makes me wonder if her father's "crackpot idea" was to sell opium all over the world. Indeed, her father's name is Charles and Charles Dodgson was an opium smoker. Is this a hidden theme? Or a lack of research by the writers and a huge coincidence?
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Beanmimo 
"August review site"
Ireland
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Posted - 24/03/2010 : 18:13:37
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Fourth best Burton after Edward Scissorhands, Ed Wood, and Beetlejuice.
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demonic
"Cinemaniac"
United Kingdom
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Posted - 25/03/2010 : 00:53:31
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| You thought it was better than Batman, Batman Returns, Big Fish and Mars Attacks...? Curiouser and curiouser.... |
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Beanmimo
"August review site"
Ireland
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Posted - 25/03/2010 : 17:34:32
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quote:
Originally posted by demonic
You thought it was better than Batman, Batman Returns, Big Fish and Mars Attacks...? Curiouser and curiouser....
hmmmm... I must have been in a hurry
make it seventh best then and you can put Big Fish as eighth.
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SixFourian
"Four ever European"
The European Union
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Posted - 25/03/2010 : 20:13:42
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Alice in Wonderland
quote:
Originally posted by MguyX
My daughter told me (age 12)
Isn't it about time we started seeing reviews by an MgirlX?
quote:
Then I heard a Mick Jagger interview (circa 1983) wherein he briefly explained why performing a song the same as in-studio was stagnant, which then changed my perspective.
Both are his song, though, so it's not really the same.
quote:
Helena Bonham Carter... reminding me of an abstract version of Miranda Richardson's Queenie from the old Black Adder II series
Yup, it was far too much of a clone of that performance for my liking, as was Depp's of all his other performances -- I can hardly remember which is which any more.
quote:
Originally posted by demonic
an increasingly tired director with very few new ideas. Pale-faced, quirky and half-assed Johnny Depp performance -tick. A few gnarled trees with pointing fingers - it's oh so gothic (lite) - check.
Agreed. There have been so many films now that would have been quite breath-taking were they not exactly the same as all the previous ones.
quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by demonic
...a high 2/5 or low 3/5.
As in, 2.5? Or 5/10?
Well, neither of those can be displayed on this site, which is why I for one would put it as demonic suggested. And in fact for me a high 2/5 would be 4/10 while a low 3/5 would indeed be 5/10. This is because if I am talking in /5 terms I always mean by this site's parameters and if /10 I always mean the I.M.D.B.'s. In order to be able to score consistently, I convert 0/5 as 1/10, 1/5 as 2/10, 5/5 as 9/10, 6/5 as 10/10 and then the other numbers divided up in between.
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Savoir Faire
This makes me wonder if her father's "crackpot idea" was to sell opium all over the world.
A crack/pot idea perhaps?
I didn't know what had happened to the dormouse. There seemed to be a non-sleepy mouse hanging around instead. And I would have preferred the playing cards to have been more like actual cards.
I enjoyed it more than most people seemed to have, though. The Overland costumes are really good, Hathaway is great as always and the twins are fractionally distinguished nicely.
A low 4/5. |
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Alice in Wonderland (2010)
